Why so absolute? Well, because of the "natural order of things," of course.
By talking to a man first, we interfere with whatever was supposed to happen or not happen, perhaps causing a conversation or a date to occur that was never meant to be and inevitably getting hurt in the process.
The remainder of the chapter makes clear that this rule means don't ask men out or hit on men or approach men in an environment where it would be clear that you would be indicating interest, e.g. at singles events. In other words, I think I can talk to guys on my dodgeball team before they talk to me since I've met them before, even though dodgeball is a great place to meet guys. But I don't know - I probably can't strike up a personal conversation with any of them.
So what's my track record on the natural order of things? +1 for he pursued me; -1 for I pursued him; 0 for unclear or ambiguous. Some of these are tough calls because most of my relationships have developed in a non-dating environment like school or work. Here are the most significant ones:
- High school boyfriend. I think he asked me if he saw me in synagogue at High Holidays first but I definitely pursued the relationship from there, telling all my friends I liked him. I think he asked me to Homecoming. I think it was actually in a NOTE. Wow. Throwback. 0.
- Waiter boyfriend (I was working at the same restaurant): unclear, but I'm pretty sure I made my interest known first. -1.
- Musical theater boyfriend (we were both doing a play): pursued me aggressively. +1.
- Semester abroad boyfriend: pursued me aggressively. +1.
- Tech company boyfriend (we both worked there): I arranged a bunch of activities that I invited work people to as an excuse to hang out with him. By the time I made my interest absolutely clear he was already hooked, but I think I baited and hooked this one and did not defer to the natural order. -1.
- College housemate boyfriend: I'm sure you can figure out how this one got started. Do I have to count this against myself? I probably should, I crushed on him before we hooked up drunk. -1.
- Dude I ended up marrying for a short time: pursued me aggressively. +1.
- Jdate guy: messaged me first, tried to weasel out of calling or e-mailing by telling me at the end of our dates to "e-mail me if you want to do something" but I did not - he always would. This is probably the Rulesiest I've been in the past, even though there were also plenty broken with him. +1.
- Law school boyfriend: we were friends, I think I made my interest clear first, but I think he forced the feelings issue. 0.
So of my past significant relationships I have a net score of 1. And that's kind of pushing it, because I excluded all my ridiculous crushes and unofficial relationships that never materialized. I don't think I've ever had much of a concept of leaving things to the natural order.
At least a couple of the guys I "pursued," though, were guys that ended up being as into me as much or more than the guys who "pursued" me. (my actuary friend 3LP has his own theory about why this might be, but he's not allowed to share it) So really, do I do irreparable harm by making some ambiguous showing of possible interest?
Another one of my many concerns about this experiment is that I always think that the kind of guy I want probably isn't the type to aggressively pursue. Rule #2 makes a point to denounce the concept of a "shy guy."
Are men really shy? ... [W]e believe that most men are not shy, just not really, really interested if they don't approach you.
Hm. Well, ok then. Moving on.
So you're supposed to go to all these singles parties but are NOT ALLOWED to approach men. You're not even allowed to go stand near one. The Rules contemplate that you instead
go to the bathroom five times...reapply your lipstick, powder your nose, order more water from the bar, think happy thoughts; walk around the room in circles until someone notices you, make phone calls from the lobby to your married friends for encouragement...
I am going to have a ton of fun with this. Walking around the room in circles? Of course they mean briskly, femininely; not like Rain Man. They've invented cell phones since the mid-nineties so I assume I don't have to go to the "lobby" to call my married friends. Interestingly, this scene seems to contemplate me being at a singles party by myself. They don't tell me how to interact with the women there. Don't women go to these things together? What about guys I've met once or twice and should probably say hi to?
Luckily, no matter how insane I look pacing around, it is going to be relatively easy for me NOT to go up to men I don't know and talk to them.
Digression: I haven't really had much occasion to interact with new men yet because I'm working a lot right now, and wasting a lot of time on professional forums that have nothing to do with me. I do have some singles events coming up in the next few weeks though, where I will be lapping the dance floor like crazy before I'll talk to any guy.
I have a lot to say about that "shy guy" issue but am too busy today to adequately comment. Hopefully I can get back to this later tonight.
ReplyDeleteThree comments
ReplyDelete1. Shy guys - They do exist. It is hard to go up and strike up a conversation with somebody you have never met before, with the intention of getting their phone number. Rejection sucks for just about anybody.
2. I take issue with their suggestions on what to do while "not talking" to the guys first. I personally believe that you should your interest known, just do it in a demure way. The occassional glance and smile should be enough to give the guy enough courage to approach you.
3. Lots of dancing still happens :) Weddings, Country Bars, Clubs, etc.
The key is to GET ON the dance floor. That's when the guys come out to make their intentions known.
ReplyDeleteShy Guys have the ability to drink a little and remove their shyness.
Going with girlfriends is not a problem especially when dancing together.
1. Shy guys: there's really a variety of reasons for this. There are indeed "shy guys" in every sense of the word out there - they're not the type to EVER talk to a girl first, but some of these guys are the nicest guys you'll ever meet.
ReplyDeleteIn my case, I'm probably not so much "shy" as "self-conscious". Sometimes, I feel like I have no idea what to say. Saying "the first thing that comes out of your mouth" or "being yourself" is probably not the best idea sometimes, so you'll struggle to find what really SHOULD be said. Naturally, a little alcohol helps with that, and suddenly, I'm talking to whoever's within ear-shot, hopefully at an appropriate volume and saliva level.
What does seem to be the common issue among "shy guys" is dealing with rejection, as Brody said. Some people do it well, some ... well, don't.
2. "Keeping busy" - that's pretty much it. You go to the bathroom five times, keep re-applying makeup, pacing back and forth to ... look busy. With the phones in existence these days, that should be easier to just pretend you're texting like crazy with someone and you're just THAT busy. Guys have to do it, too. Otherwise, we just end up being the guys that sit at the bar or stand up, keep our head swiveling 360 degrees around the place and just look ... odd.
Not to steal your thunder of YOUR blog, but here's a question - how would you, as a single woman, want to be approached? Simple hello? A compliment? A cheesy line? A minimum offer of a beverage for your time?
Unfortunately, for guys, this answer differs so much from woman to woman that sticking with one strategy will be an utter fail on some days. Ultimately, it does come down to being comfortable with rejection (for the guy, I guess).
In the spirit of "The Rules", go out and tell every one of your platonic male friends to not be afraid of rejection from a woman. Might make it easier to follow the "Rules".
Agree that INITIAL male shyness around women is almost always correlated with fear of rejection. I don't know why some men fear it so much but they do and A LOT of actuaries fall into this cateogry, at least that's what I've observed when I've gone out with my single male coworkres and tried to pick up girls at bars.
ReplyDeleteFailure affects people in many different ways. Some actuaries can fail an exam and brush it off, smile, and just say "oh well, there's next time." Others are crushed, devastated and have a lingering feeling of despondency that can last for over a month.
Now if the authors are using the word "approach" to describe taking initiative after you've been on many dates, like you have to be the one to call everytime, setup plans/dates everytime, etc. Then they have a point, but that's just the simple "He's Just Not That Into You" concept.
Authors fail miserably if they think some random dude at a party isn't interested in you because he hasn't come up to you yet.
It was mentioned briefly above, but there are a lot of things women can do without breaking the rules to let someone know that they are receptive. If you catch someone's eye, ***SMILE AT THEM*** and maybe even nod a little when you do it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, do shy guys not have their powers of observation? (Maybe someone should write a book for you too. LOL.) I think if you pay attention you can tell if someone is interested in you before they ever open their mouth.
And for the guys, if you don't know, and you can manage to find a way to be in the vicinity of the person you are interested in and can say *anything* to them that's "friend"ly--not "dately" (and not crude), most likely the woman will respond back enough to get a sense of whether or not you should proceed. No?
The rude bitches who look at you like you have six heads and walk away are just that... rude bitches. Who needs em?!?
A reasonable girl who might be someone worth getting to know will at least respond verbally even if it's to say something short and move away (cause she's not interested). If you approach it as "friend"ly conversation and not scrounging for a date, it will be much easier for both of you!
And, in my mind, it's *the woman's job* to give you some indication of her interest (e.g., SMILING a real smile, responding with a pleasant tone and reasonable amount of words (more than one or two words phrases), sticking around for a few minutes and not walking away right away. Note: I also think if she seems shy in return, it's probably because she might also be self-conscious which implies that she too is interested.
If she never smiles and is very point-blank, especially with a cold uninviting tone, she's probably not interested. Move on. If you didn't ask her for her number or a date right away, is that really rejection? or is it just testing the waters?
Someone who is interested will respond.
Besides, what you shy guys don't know is that some of us love guys who trip up a little when they talk to you at first, or do something goofey, because we know it means they're nervous, which makes them a little charming and makes me feel good, because I know the interest is genuine.
I, personally, can't stand the arrogant pretty-boys who roam the room for fresh meat and act like God's gift when they approach you. Suave is not all it's cracked up to be. I much prefer someone shy and charming!!!
-A Practicing Rules Girl
PS. Re: shyness or goofiness, I've learned that if I can just not take myself so seriously and laugh at myself (lovingly) when I do something silly, I feel so much better about myself and I think my dates appreciate it too. Probably the same for guys, i would expect.