Him (via text message): I'm sorry if I did anything to offend you. Do you just wanna be friends?
I was not sure what to do with this. I could have just ignored it like I did everything else, but it seemed like the jig was up.
So... I broke Rule 5 and called him. One could argue that I didn't break Rule 5, since I was calling him after he had texted me a dozen times. I still think the Rules probably wouldn't have approved.
Me: Hey, how are you?
Him: Good, you?
Me: Alright!
Me: So... what was up with that text message?
Him: Oh... well, I texted you over the weekend, and then I saw you at the thing last night and it was weird.
Me: I didn't think it was weird, what was weird about it?
[I will discuss this event later. It was a very interesting Rules experience. I think he's referring to the fact that I left without stopping to chat with him, though I did smile and wave bye.]
Him: I don't know, I just thought... With the text and everything, I didn't know if you were blowing me off.
Me: Oh, sorry, I just am not much of a texter. I figure if people want to talk, they'll call.
Him: Ok, I guess I was just reading it wrong. Sorry! So what have you been up to?
Me: Been busy, about to go on another business trip... [etc. on this line of conversation, including discovering that we might both be going to the same seder, at the home of a girl he used to date]
Him: Well do you want to get together before you leave town?
Me: Ok, when did you have in mind?
Him: Tomorrow night? Well, I have an event but I'm sure it will end eventually. [rambles]
Me: [reminds him about regular Tuesday night commitment]
Him: Ok. Thursday night? I have something early in the evening but it should be over by 7 or 7:30.
Me: That might work.
Him: Ok, I don't have anything planned, but it will probably involve a place and food or drinks or something.
Me: *laughs* Um, ok.
[next stopping point in the conversation]
Me: Well, I'm sorry you thought I was offended!
Me: You know, when you call a girl over and over and she never calls back it generally means she's blowing you off. I don't want to be a stalker...
Me: I totally thought we were cool! When have I ever not called you back?
Him: I know... it was just the texts...
Me: [DRUMROLL FOR THE BIG RULEBREAKING EVENT] Well, like I said, I don't really text much, but even if I did, I'm not sure I would really want to get to know someone that way.
Him: I know, but I wasn't trying to do that, I was just saying hi. But it's cool, I won't text anymore, I'll just call.
Me: You can text, I'm just kind of not good with the texts.
Him: You're fine - I'm just crazy!
Me: Well as long as you're the crazy one.
[some stupid and kind of awkward banter about him not being a stalker]
Me [at 10 minutes, 45 seconds]: OK, well have a good night!
Him: OK, I hope you can make it Thursday, let me know.
A couple of points:
1) No Saturday night invite for fourth date.
2) No plan for this date, which I suppose I can forgive somewhat since he thought I was blowing him off.
3) I don't really approve of how he handled thinking I was blowing him off.
4) Awkwardness and rulebreaking during this conversation.
5) I don't really think he's that into me, honestly. He only wants to do stuff when it's convenient for him, has never suggested a weekend night, and doesn't really try to contact me that often - even when you count his unreciprocated texts.
6) All of the above has pretty much made me not that into him either.
7) I am actually not sure what I am going to do about Thursday. I have two-three potential date invitations on the table from other guys (two not yet set but requested via various electronic media; one phone call to return). I only have a few nights left before leaving town for 2 weeks, and this dude has pretty much exposed himself as, as Brody put it, a classic next.
But I still sort of want to see what happens, if nothing else for purposes of this blog. My friend described him as "Rules-resistant," and as such, he remains excellent practice.
Because I am the resident jackass of the blog, I feel like I need to point something out.
ReplyDelete"My friends all pretty much said I should try to back out, but I have tentatively decided not to. I am sort of guessing "Date" #2 is not going to go well, and seriously, if this guy doesn't step up by Date #3, next!"
I thought you were being soft on him back then, and now you are even softer!
Every blog needs a resident "jackass". ;) I usually end up getting along well with them after a few fights.
ReplyDeleteMy Canadian-style automatic apologies for posting so much, don't mean to hijack your blog or anything, but at present I don't have any working URLs for Rules forums or a local support group, so for now, you're it. (Canadian apologies are usually meant to reassure people that we're not nuts, or that we're actually doing something right. ;) Or they can very often be nastiness dressed up as an apology - we've learned it's much harder to argue with us that way. It's like saying "Excuse me" while you're elbowing past someone on the subway. It covers your butt.)
Anyway - this guy? He must be very good-looking. I get that. But it also occurs to me that he may be someone The Rules just don't apply to. And it does remind me of a cautionary tale: I had a friend who read "Getting To I Do", a similar book, in the 90s, and tried to apply it to her boyfriend. Her boyfriend was from a different, more male-dominated culture, and he used to cheat on her, restrict her every movement and threaten to hit her. He was the worst guy possible for anyone. She feared for her own and her son's safety, but she loved this guy and wanted to make him into marriage material. I kept trying to tell her that the book just didn't apply to jerks like that. She was determined, though. Thank God they're no longer together.
I'm just saying maybe this guy doesn't know how to treat women in general - don't know, never met him, would have to see the dynamics that wouldn't come through in the written word. Maybe you might be well advised to keep "Rules"ing him and see how it works out. My friend in the 90s could have weeded out that abusive jerk that way - and not ended up referring to the book as "The Firewood" and losing confidence in relationships.
It's your call always, though - you can get a read on this guy better than any of us can, working blind.
Yeah, my read on the guy is that he's kind of clueless and probably has a lot of girls make all the effort. You're right lipman that I'm being "soft" on him, but a) I don't really know HOW to next him. I figured he would just drop off the map eventually, but he forced the issue. Maybe I should have taken that as an opportunity to next but I didn't want to imply that he had "offended" me. b) I don't see an imminent reason to next as long as I'm not in danger of emotional investment. Currently, I get a good laugh out of almost every interaction I have with him, I'm not wasting a whole lot of time on him, and for now that's fine by me. That may change if others actually start asking me out.
ReplyDeleteI should clarify (again) that if he DID step up, I COULD be interested. I'm attracted to him, he seems to be a decent kisser from the like, 4 kisses we've had, he's smart, we have good banter. I don't think I should use guys under the Rules once I've figured out they're definitely not for me.
ReplyDeleteLet's be clear though, I hold out no hope of him stepping up. So I'm amusing myself but justifying it by my potential interest if he did step up, which he won't. Make sense?
Makes a lot of sense! That's essentially what I'm using J for, too. I suspect every RG could use a few willing guinea pigs! :)
ReplyDeleteSounds like this guy'll make a good friend at minimum, even if he never gets the cojones to actually step up. He and J could go out for a pint together and commiserate over the mystery that is women....
Yeah, I don't think that just because you're not feeling excited/hopeful that he'll step up, you have to immediately ditch him. The spirit of the rules is to be honest with yourself, and not waste time on ONE person who has indicated over a period of time that he's not going to take the relationship any further. But you're not wasting time - you're still dating other people, and you're not using him - you're both having a good time together, all you're getting out of it is each other's company at this point, and it's weird to think of it like you're being "soft" on him when he hasn't actually wronged you, at all.
ReplyDeleteI would say you were being soft on him if he'd cancelled two dates and shown up late for one, or if you had been on several dates and were sleeping together and he didn't want to call it a relationship, or if you were in a relationship and he was lying to you...
Maybe he's clueless, maybe he's not a guy who's good at taking the lead, maybe this means he's not going to sweep you off your feet ultimately. But all that means is that you shouldn't pin your hopes and your energy on him right now. So long as you're not invested and ignoring other dates and fretting over it, there is commensurately less reason to make any judgment about the future.
Hey, maybe you can be the kind of friend to him that teaches him how to actually make the right efforts with women! :)
ReplyDeleteI think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. He isn't asking you on any Weekend dates. He isn't coming into conversations with a game plan for a date. He isn't even very good at committing to a solid date (hence the "after his show" type dates).
ReplyDeleteIt is not that he isn't doing those things because he doesn't know better, it is that he isn't doing those things because he isn't really that interested in you. The Rules are trying to keep you from getting in a realtionship with a guy who isn't that into you.
Why would the Rules say anything about a weekend date? Because weekends are important to people, so if a guy asks you out on a Saturday night date, it is because you are important to him.
Why would the Rules frown on meeting halfway? Because a guy putting forth the effort to drive to your front door and pick you up says something about his interest level in you.
You can go on and on, but the main goal is to weed out the guys who are just sorta into you. You shouldn't want somebody like that. You should want somebody who is dying to see you. Somebody who is so excited about your first date that he wants everything to be perfect, so he plans it out in advance. Somebody who wants to make sure your time with him counts, so he doesn't invite you to hang out with his friends, or come see his show. Hopefully you get where I am going with this...
Another problem with the HJNTIY rationale is that the converse is not always true. That is, if a guy is asking you out on Wednesday for a Saturday night and picking you up and paying the check and planning everything out and calling all the time and wanting to see you all the time, it does not necessarily follow that he's so excited because of YOU. People have all sorts of things going on in their lives and all sorts of whacky individually-developed ethics and ideas about what they deserve from others and what their actions mean and expectations for their future and all that - it just plain takes time to get to know someone for real, and before you do that guessing about their thoughts and feelings is mostly an exercise in imagination.
ReplyDeleteWHO KNOWS what's going on with this guy. The point of the rules is not to over-simplify who he is or what is his M.O. It's to remove the burden of reading HIS mind or accurately diagnosing HIS situation. And Rules girls are not supposed to be offended when guys fail to follow the rules. They're not supposed to read in motives like "he must think I don't have anything better to do!" or "he must not think I'm important enough for a weekend date!"
I think Rulebreaker just plain has it right. If he asks her out on Wednesday for a Saturday night date, she'll go. If not, next!
I am going to have to disagree anonymous. About 95% of the time, those things are done because the guy is interested in YOU. Or conversely, he doesn't do them because he is not interested in you. There is the 5% of the time where other legit things are going on in his life. But it is only 5%.
ReplyDeleteBack when I was dating, I obeyed my own set of rules that I had cobbled together from various sources. One of them was to not call a girl back if she cancelled a date (within the first couple of dates). I had that happen to me three times, and didn't call any of them back. Twice, I later found out that the excuses they gave me (one told me that he Uncle was in the hospital and she had to go there) were bogus.
Because I was obeying my rules, I didn't hold out hope for those girls, or waste any more time or effort on them.
When I eventually started dating my wife, there was no doubt she was interested. It made everything so much more enjoyable, knowing that the person I was dating was just as excited about me as I was about them.
I guess my point is that you can justify just about anything this guy does. If he asks RB out for next wednesday night because he has family in town on the weekend, does he get a pass? What if he follows that up with a get-together with his friends the following Tuesday, and no date on the weekend because he has shows to do? And so on and so forth.
In my jackass opinion, draw the line and stick with it.
You know, I'm on the fence about this. Lipman's gender and marital status give him credibility here in my opinion. (Similarly, I just read Steve Harvey's book, which is also a great and funny read, and which gives a man's perspective - at least, an African-American-culture-soaked stand-up-comedy-successful man's perspective - and it makes a lot of sense. If The Rules are like dating advice from your mom, Act Like a Lady is like dating advice from your protective dad and all of your uncles.) I'm new to this, but I think RGs would welcome straight advice from men - especially happily married men, who would have none of their own secret agendae going on. Lipman, you seem like you're worth listening to.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, RB has said she's similarly "not that into" this lazy fool she's dating (as Steve Harvey might phrase it ;) ). She's simply practicing The Rules on him and seeing how they work. If he ends up receptive to the silent training The Rules advocate - nicely refusing last-minute dates until he gets the silent message that he must plan ahead - then that's great practice for RG, and it's evidence that this technique will work. As long as she doesn't get too emotionally invested in this fool (again, said in fun, taking my quasi-ebonic phraseology from Steve ;) ), then no harm done. Lipman, what do you think of that? Would you agree that if it remains only an exercise, it's fine?
Nay, you make a good point. I am a bit more conservative in my approach though.
ReplyDeleteI know that when I was dating, I could come up with an excuse to do something that I knew was against my own set of rules. I would validate breaking the rule, then I would break it. And every time, I would realize why the rule was there to begin with.
I know RB says that she is not that into this guy, but I am not buying it :).
And your second point is that this guy might eventually get the hint and become something else totally. I have two issues with that.
1. You aren't going to change a guy. End of story.
2. The problem with this guy (in my opinion) isn't that he doesn't know how to approach dating, it is that he just isn't that interested in dating. I make the assumption that RB would like to find a suitable husband (which is the goal of the book if I am not mistake). Do you think this guy is looking for a suitable wife right now? I don't. I think he is looking for someone fun to hang out with once or twice a week for a couple of months.
I guess I'm missing where/how she indicates that she's into this guy at all - although she does say that she COULD be into him if he showed interest more obviously - is that it?
ReplyDeleteIt's ultimately up to RB. I have a similar Rules guinea pig to whom I *am* attracted (whenever I'm in his presence, that is - otherwise he doesn't take over all my thoughts or anything like that) - and he comes across as your typical nerdy, awkward intellectual man. I've done The Rules on him, and been consistently shocked at how his behaviour toward me has changed. Last fall, when I was assistant-directing a play with him, he'd hand me a ten and ask him to go get him a latte. Now, he emails me asking how I am and he phones me in when I'm too sick to make his workshop. He pulls me in for a hug when I stick my hand out for a handshake. It mystifies me - I mean, you're right, you can't change a man, and men aren't trainable dogs when it comes to women - but my experiments on him with The Rules seem to give the opposite impression. :) I don't want to look down on him, but this kind of spooks me out - The Rules seem to prove themselves to be eerily effective when the poor guy has no idea that he's being "Ruled".
Your last point is well taken, though. It doesn't look to me as if this guy is looking for long-term either. I hope I'm right in that it doesn't appear to me as if RG is that invested - besides, she's got SO many other dates/prospects going on. I would be in a state of bliss if either of my two present crushes were to ask me on an actual date!! And I know you're not supposed to say this about yourself, but I'm very often told how physically beautiful I look. One 20sthg guy found out I was in my 40s, his jaw dropped, and he asked me if I were secretly an elf. (I just said something in Sindarin to him and left it at that. ;) ) And honestly, as a trained model, I know when my appearance is what I would consider satisfactory. But even with the looks thing taken care of, I cannot catch the interest of a man on whom I have a crush, because I've never learnt how to hide my attraction - until now, and it's starting to work. Amazing.
I don't know - I'm just fascinated with The Rules and I'm looking at it as an experiment in a new approach to dealing with my feelings of attraction toward men. I want to make my attraction feelings less scary - that's my immediate goal. That's happening. I'm wondering if I can take it further and this stuff may work to get me into the unthinkable situation of actually being the acknowledged girlfriend of someone I have a crush on...although that kind of situation doesn't even seem real to me because it's never happened. For RG, it looks to me like she's trying new stuff with texting guy, and it's having some positive results for her.
I hope I'm right and RG is just focused on short-term goals with this man in particular. :) Doesn't look like she needs him for anything more than that anyway. So he might as well fulfill his use as her guinea pig.
As to whether I'm into him...this may be my greatest evidence so far of the Rules working as they're supposed to *on me*.
ReplyDeleteI *was* pretty into him. I was super excited about him when I met him, and even after the first and second dates - when he was already a "turd" according to the Rules. Even during this time I had my head screwed on straight, though, because I followed the Rules (mostly) and never did anything dumb and never put myself out there.
When he kept texting, kept not asking me for Saturday, kept not planning, etc., I honestly started to lose interest. I gradually lost any trace of that initial excitement and it was easily replaced with "I wonder what this douchebag will do next."
This is supposed to be what happens under the Rules. You are supposed to WANT to next him if he isn't stepping up. After date 3 (lunch) I was well over it, but I wanted to see how it all played out.
And it played out basically as Lipman predicted - I still have to write that part up. Am I upset? Not at all. I have two fairly solid prospects and a third possibility. Did I feel some disappointment? Only in my own rulebreaking actions, which I'll explain in the upcoming post.